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Stages of Acceptance and Eroticizing the Mundane February 13, 2011

Posted by Dev in Musings.
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Two disparate trains of thought have been running through my mind over the past few days. I have been trying to pull them together because they seem to be related. Let me share them with you.

The first idea I was had to do with the various stages of acceptance a person goes through to accept chastity—or any fetish or kink that his/her partner may present. The scenario that I read most commonly usually has the man presenting an idea to his wife/girlfriend. Rarely do I see that these women are immediately accepting—in fact they may be totally opposed to the notion. The stages seem to be:


  • Total confusion
  • Shocked
  • Weirded out (may be as extreme as total revulsion)

    If the woman is moving to be GGG (good, giving, game) then

  • Laissez-faire
  • Cautiously curious
  • Grudging acceptance
  • Enthusiastic participant

From what I have read, some women may stay in the first three stages in an endless loop. Their attitude seems to be, “I don’t want to talk about it, I don’t understand why you want to do that, it’s just weird.” The man, in response, becomes defensive, dejected, perhaps angry or depressed. He may move into “stealth mode” meaning he will participate in the activity, unbeknownst to his wife. Clearly none of this is psychologically healthy for either person.

If the wife decides she is willing to entertain the idea, she moves to the next series of steps. “Laissez-faire” is characterized by an “Okay, if you want to, but don’t ask me to be involved” attitude. Her husband, happy now that he is able to do what was previously forbidden let’s her know that he is grateful; this in turn triggers a cautious curiosity and tentative willingness to learn more. “Grudging acceptance” in chastity might be characterized by, “I’ll take the key but don’t expect much else” or, “I’m willing to play along with this according to some specific ground rules.” The final stage, wherein issues are resolved, is when the wife becomes an enthusiastic participant. This is what I was touching on in this post where I explored the concept of being equally invested.

How long does this take? That is totally individual. It might be years, or maybe a few months. In some couples it may occur fairly quickly.

Kelmag’s blog, Secret Chastity Husband, seems to chart this process quite well. At first, his wife had no interest and in fact, thought that the whole idea was pretty awful. He went into stealth mode—just look at the title of his blog! But they were able to work through their issues and have gotten to what seems to be grudging acceptance. (I know kelmag reads my blog so I’m sure he’ll correct me if I have mischaracterized what he and his wife have gone through.)

I tried to apply this to Ab, me, and chastity. It didn’t entirely work but it wasn’t completely off the mark. One of the big differences was that I introduced the idea to him and—well, frankly, guys have sex on the brain, right? And if his wife brings up a sort of kinky, hot idea, isn’t the husband likely to go along? Ab was confused, at first—he’d never heard of chastity, after all—but quickly moved to the curious stage. Now he is very much an enthusiastic participant, as am I.

All of this got me thinking about other things he had expressed interest in, things I might not have been as willing to accept. I have mentioned before that Ab has a touch of cross-dresser in him—and I wasn’t all that enthusiastic. I’ve tried to analyze my reluctance and I think it’s the fact that he’s a masculine guy and I like masculine men. I had no interest him wearing a wig, make-up, or lacy, frilly women’s clothes. But it was an interest of his and I suspect he might have had some stealth moments that I wasn’t aware of. Either way, he didn’t force the issue and I didn’t bring it up.

This issue has been on my mind more in recent months. I mean, he’s got five ounces of metal screwed on his cock and balls because that’s what I want, so, perhaps I should try to be slightly more accommodating of what he wants. That was the genesis of the idea of a kilt for his birthday—manly enough for me but it’s still a skirt, which gives him that cross-dressing thrill. As a matter of fact, the kilt has been a huge success, so much so that I’m thinking of getting him another one. Not just a comfy kilt to wear around the house, but one of the “real” ones that he can wear out and about. Are you listening to me, Ab? 🙂

He likes wearing the kilt and it makes him happy, so I began to think about another item of clothing that would be manly enough for me and womanly enough to tickle his fetish bone. He off-handedly mentioned having a maid’s outfit for when he does chores around the house. I certainly wasn’t into a black satin thing with layers of petticoats (what maid really dresses like that, anyway?) but something utilitarian would be fine. Once again, Amazon is my friend. I ordered up the housekeeping dress pictured above. It fits well and looks quite nice on him, actually. And when he puts it on, he moves into full housekeeper mode: today he cleaned the house from top to bottom, fixed the drain on the sink, figured out what’s wrong with the broken dishwasher (and we ordered up the necessary part), cooked me a delicious lunch (homemade tomato soup with cheddar-sausage balls on the side) and has a delicious dinner (braised short ribs) bubbling away in the crockpot. Oh, and he washed the dishes because the dishwasher is kaput at the moment.

All this because of a $35 dress? I should have bought one years ago. Oh well, live and learn.

As I was puzzling this out, I read this blog post from Celtic Queen and had an “A-ha!” moment. Sexualizing or eroticizing the mundane. As I said above, guys have sex on the brain. As Celtic Queen discovered, and now I have too, we can use this to our advantage.

To women out there who might be resisting chastity, for whatever reason: try to get over that GGG hump and let your man enjoy it. You may end up with a clean house in the process.

SWOT Analysis: Chastity January 26, 2011

Posted by Dev in Musings.
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I know many people discover this blog as they search for information on chastity, trying to decide if they want to incorporate chastity into their relationship/marriage. As part of that learning process, people naturally consider the pros and cons. This got me thinking somewhat strategically about chastity and I decided brainstorm a SWOT analysis. SWOT: strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Traditionally, SWOT focuses on internal (strengths, weaknesses) and external (opportunities, threats) factors. I have decided to operationalize the internal factors (S,W) as the immediate, short-term effects of chastity while the external factors are the longer-term, larger repercussions of chastity on the relationship.

Typically, a SWOT analysis is conducted with a group of people brainstorming in a room. Since I am brainstorming by myself, I definitely welcome comments and suggestions: items that I have missed, which I will add to the lists and items that might be mis-categorized.

For me, the process of thinking this through has been a fun exercise. I hope it is helpful to others!

Strategic Objective: To determine whether to become a chaste couple.


The most immediate and short-term effects that couples report from chastity are:

  • Increased intimacy
  • Improved communication
  • Enhanced sex life

Other benefits include:

  • For the man: feeling horny and sexually aroused, especially if he is wearing a device.
  • For the keyholder: feelings of power and control which can be enjoyable.
  • There is an increasing community of chastity enthusiasts on the Internet, thus an opportunity to make new friends.
  • Reading about chastity is an opportunity to broaden your horizons and learn something new.


  • For couples who choose not to use the honor system, chastity requires purchase of a device which can cost, at a minimum, $150
  • For many (most?) men, wearing a device requires an adjustment/break-in period, which may be uncomfortable.
  • Behavior changes, ie, sitting down to urinate, decreased masturbation; these may not be acceptable to some.
  • Keyholder may perceive chastity as “work” or something else to do/be responsible for.
  • Learning curve requires an investment of time and effort.


  • Couples who engage in chastity report improvements in their relationship that are so profound that they do not want to “go back” to the old way of doing things. Even if they choose to stop using a device, they want to continue the positive benefits of increased intimacy, improved communication, and enhanced sex life.
  • Chastity provides a mechanism for couples to explore deeper needs, desires, and fantasies (“gateway kink” as coined by Tom Allen).


  • Chastity is not a panacea; for couples with a relationship that is fundamentally not healthy at the core, chastity is not going to fix it.
  • Chastity is a change and for many people, change in and of itself is threatening.
  • Chastity may be perceived as very kinky, weird, or “way out there”; those who are not sexually adventurous may have no interest in chastity as an activity or more broadly, lifestyle.
  • If chastity is a long-held desire by the initiator (often the man), bringing it up is a risk, especially if the other partner is not interested and in fact, may be repulsed by the idea.

Searching for Research October 16, 2010

Posted by Dev in Musings.
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I mentioned in my post yesterday that I was interested in chastity and orgasm denial as a potential therapeutic intervention for a mild form of erectile dysfunction (ED) that Ab had been experiencing, as a resulting of a lengthening refractory period and his masturbatory activities. I was curious if there was actually any research on this topic and so, using the resources of the National Library of Medicine, I conducted a literature search. Literature on chastity, either as an intervention or even just a topic of discussion, is non-existent. I found studies on a variety of slightly-out-there subjects, including surveys of voluntary eunuchs (men who are castrated in the absence of a compelling medical reason) but no one is writing about chastity. If someone is looking for a thesis topic, chastity is a field that is wide open.

I did, however, find an interesting article by Rösing and colleagues on “Male Sexual Dysfunction Diagnosis and Treatment From a Sexological and Interdisciplinary Perspective” published in the December 11, 2009 issue of Deutsches Ärzteblatt International. Fortunately, the article is available online and published in English, since my German is a little rusty these days. 🙂

They have a useful definition of sexual disorders:

Sexual disorders in men are categorized according to their occurrence in the cycle of sexual response into disorders of desire, arousal (erectile dysfunction), or orgasm (premature or delayed ejaculation, or anorgasmia), albeit with considerable potential for overlap and concurrence between these disorder groups.

Thinking about the various blogs and forums that I read and participate in, all of us have come to chastity for a variety of reasons. For some people it is just a kinky game or a fantasy come true. But others, many of us, in fact, are looking to fix a problem or enhance a relationship. Rösing et al. touch on this with this comment:

Desire disorders increasingly present as a problem among men seeking medical help for sexual difficulties. Erectile dysfunction is often presented as the primary complaint, but it is not uncommon for this to mask other problems such as exhaustion (with or without substance abuse), relationship difficulties, and, more rarely, disorders of sexual preference. Organic causes (testosterone deficiency, hyperprolactinemia, medication-related side effects) are important, but at times overemphasized in the somatic medical literature. (Emphasis mine.)

As I have noted many times in this blog, the prevailing approach among physicians is to treat sexual dysfunction pharmacologically; while that may be effective in the short run, it does not necessarily address the larger problems that may be present. Further, there are those of us in the world who don’t necessarily believe that a pill is the panacea for everything. It would seem that Rösing et al. agree with me:

Extensive research results from the last 15 years and the introduction of selective phosphodiesterase 5 inhibitors have led to changes in the diagnostics and treatment of male sexual dysfunction. Invasive investigation is now almost obsolete. Medication is introduced early. Success is measured in terms of function…The view of this disorder has changed from an almost entirely psychogenic to an organically dominated, multifactorial etiology. A large proportion of studies on male sexual dysfunction is directed at the effects of pharmacological treatment on desire, erection and ejaculation, and remains purely at the level of the functional disorder. The discovery of highly effective oral medications by the pharmaceutical industry have quite literally created a “potent” new market…In clinical practice, however the norm is to focus in a shorthand way on “functional repair,” marginalizing or completely neglecting psychosocial and psychosexual (relationship) aspects. (Emphasis mine.)


Sexual experience always comprises a synergy of biological, psychological and social factors, whose individual weighting and interrelation where a sexual problem exists must be identified on an individual patient basis… Against this background, any diagnostic approach which considers only the physical (sexual function, for example, desire, erection, and ejaculation) or the emotional (for example, personality development and characteristics) or the relationship is necessarily incomplete and inadequate as a means of planning the treatment of sexual dysfunction accompanied by distress. Distress arises when a sense of ones own sexual inadequacy arises in the context of a relationship. The desire for relationship is innate and therefore ubiquitous.

They quote a recent study by Kleinplatz et al., published in 2007:

…men and women over 65 and in long term relationships cited factors such as authenticity, intense emotional connection, communication, and a sense of being accepted as characteristics of “great sex.”

No mention of orgasm as being a characteristic of “great sex”! Of course, the respondents were men and women over 65 and they may have given up on orgasm completely, but I still think their list of important factors is interesting.

Apparently in Germany, couples therapy is known as “syndiastic,” which derives from the Greek word syndyastikós (“orientated towards mutuality in a couple relationship”). Hmm…sounds an awful lot like, “Her pleasure is my pleasure,” or “Our shared mutual pleasure,” which I have written about before.

Rösing et al. theorize on how to put this into action:

Basic psychosocial needs are therefore capable of being fulfilled in a unique way via sexual “body-language.” Their chronic frustration via dysfunctional or absent (intimate) physical contact, plays a key role in the development and maintenance of psychosomatic disorders, including all functional sexual disorders…Recent studies of the placebo effect have shown that the effect of medicines is frequently enhanced by the supportive attention received in the consultation, in addition to the attribution effect, which arises from a positive expectation of treatment. …If, reasonably enough, we accept the placebo effect of the good doctor-patient relationship, we should value all the more highly the health promoting potential of a functioning intimate relationship, and seek to influence it positively. (Emphasis mine.)

Or, more succinctly stated:

The biopsychosocial etiology of sexual dysfunction calls for a biopsychosocial approach to treatment, involving the methods of “narrative medicine” as well as organic and pharmacological approaches.

Once again, we can’t just throw a pill at it…and this is why:

…long term use of solely pharmacological or mechanical treatments were associated with less satisfaction with therapy among patients than estimated by urologists.

More on satisfaction in the sexual relationship:

Questionnaires exploring the value to prostate cancer patients and their partners of relationship, nongenital sexuality (exchange of caresses) and genital sexuality (sexual intercourse) demonstrated that only importance of genital sexuality decreased in both partners before and after radical prostatectomy. Relationship and the importance of physical closeness (kissing and cuddling) retained their importance. Other studies confirmed this higher value placed on the fulfillment of the need for psychosocial closeness, intimacy, and security in comparison with the pursuit of purely sexual satisfaction. (Emphasis mine.)

They sum up, quite nicely, why overall, sex is important:

The ubiquitous human desire for the fulfillment of basic psychosocial needs is fundamental, and must be taken as seriously by medicine as the investigation of pathogenetic mechanisms. In relation to sexual dysfunction, this implies the restoration to patients of the health promoting effects of sexuality.

Unfortunately, they also explain why no one is going to be throwing a bunch of money at research that pursues this view of sexual function and dysfunction:

Although efforts are being directed at conducting controlled, clinical trials and randomized controlled multicentre studies in psychosexual medical research, it is an unfortunate truth that nowhere near such generous resources are available for this area as for that of commercially exploitable pharmaceutical research. But this must not lead, for ethical reasons, to the withholding from patients plausible and clinically tried and tested treatments.

Oh well.

I am working on a letter to Dr. Rösing and his colleagues asking if he has ever heard of or considered chastity as an intervention for male sexual dysfunction. I’ll keep everyone posted.


Rösing D, Klebingat KJ, Berberich HJ, Bosinski HA, Loewit K, Beier KM. Male sexual dysfunction: diagnosis and treatment from a sexological and interdisciplinary perspective. Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2009 Dec;106(50):821-8. Epub 2009 Dec 11. Review. PubMed PMID: 20049092; PubMed Central PMCID: PMC2801066.

Kleinplatz PJ, Ménard AD. Building blocks toward optimal–sexuality: constructing a conceptual model. The Family Journal: Counseling and therapy for couples and families. 2007;15:72–78.

The Stages of Chastity: DLMC October 2, 2010

Posted by Dev in Musings.
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I am a conceptual sort of person and thus I like to develop frameworks or models to explain things. I’ve been pondering a conceptual framework for chastity. I certainly don’t have it all figured out but I thought I post a few initial ideas with the hope to get some feedback so I can refine this. Once it is done, I can make it official with a very detailed illustration and accompanying narrative, which I can then publish in a scientific journal to worldwide acclaim.

Or I can blab about it here, which is the more likely scenario. 🙂

In the Devoted Lover Model of Chastity (DLMC), I tentatively have identified three major phases and two sub-phases, as follows:

  • Getting to Headspace
  • Chastity Nirvana
    • The Home Stretch
    • Diminishing Returns
  • Orgasm

It’s a circular cycle that repeats: the first time a man is locked up and then again, after orgasm (whether that is minutes, hours, days, or weeks) the process begins with Getting to Headspace. However, because this is a model that exists in time, it is a spiral versus a closed circle, because people (couples) grow and mature as they go through the process. Thus, each chastity cycle is different and potentially more fulfilling, as couples learn from each experience. Conceptually, however, the phases in each cycle are the same or very similar.

Getting to Headspace. This is the first phase after a device is placed on a man and locked. Sarah Jameson suggests that this phase may take 7 to 10 days although I think for those experienced with chastity, it may come more quickly because a man prefers the Chastity Nirvana (headspace) phase more than the process of getting to it and has the experience of knowing how to get there. During Getting to Headspace a man experiences a variety of feelings including excitement, amazement, a bit of wonder (this is particularly true for men who have long fantasized about chastity and suddenly are seeing it as a dream come true), and of course, horniness. Negative feelings may also surface: crankiness and frustration, in particular. These feelings have a ying-yang quality which comes from a very basic conflict that a man is struggling with during this period, that of giving up control. Chastity is a consensual power exchange (at least the way Ab and I are playing the game, and that seems to be true for most of the people I have conversed with on various forums). Even though a man may say to his keyholder, “I have given you control,” the minute the lock is clicked and the key handed over, I don’t think that control is truly and completely given until the man moves out of the Getting to Headspace phase of the process. The hallmark of this phase is the need for the man to resolve these conflicting feelings and accept that the keyholder is in control. It is the resolution of this inner conflict that allows the man to move forward to Chastity Nirvana.

Chastity Nirvana. The peaceful, Zen-like feeling of being locked up accompanied by a desire to want to be locked up. During this phase a man can’t imagine being any other way and in fact, gets anxious at the thought of not being locked up. The conflict of Getting to Headspace has been resolved and he is able to fully relax and enjoy the feelings of sexual excitement, tension, arousal, and desire that are present within his body and mind. Finding an appropriate outlet for these feelings is when a man begins to focus on the object of his desire who is, typically, his wife and keyholder. How these feelings are manifested seem to vary. The conventional wisdom suggests that men become more caring, affectionate, and attentive. This may translate into becoming more helpful around the house, offering to do more chores and so on. For a man who hasn’t been doing this previously, this might be the most remarkable change his wife will notice. In fact, for men who are trying to entice their wives into a chastity lifestyle, this seems to be the carrot that they dangle. The promise of being a better husband, particularly in ways that will be readily apparent, certainly would seem to be an appealing outcome to a woman.

(As an aside, since Ab was already doing a ton of stuff around the house, this change wasn’t particularly noticeable to me. However, he has certainly been more caring and loving during his time in chastity.)

Beyond household chores, the bigger and more important change comes in the area of sexual relations. Because the man has resolved his conflict and given up control, he is able now to focus on his wife. “Her pleasure is my pleasure” is the mantra of Chastity Nirvana. From everything I have read, this seems to be true. The challenge for the wife/keyholder is to fully believe, accept, and embrace this principle. Since women have been socialized to believe that men are sexually dominant, it takes a bit of mental work to realize that a man is offering up his orgasms—the traditional measure of “pleasure”—in exchange for her complete and total pleasure.

For the woman, this is actually her phase of Getting to Headspace. For some women, they never fully achieve headspace and thus don’t arrive at their own personal phase of Chastity Nirvana. Hopefully, having a conceptual framework to explain the process can help a woman to resolve this issue, if this is something that is bothering her (again, this is directed to any “reluctant wives” who might be reading this).

It seems that Chastity Nirvana can go on indefinitely, provided that both members of the couple keep their interest and attention focused on the experience of chastity. This is where I think it is very important that the elements of chastity being a game come into play. Making it a game keeps it fun and lighthearted. Even though there is some important emotional work going on within both members of the couple, there is no need for that to be a serious, dour experience. Also, making it a game makes it easier to keep the attention level high. No man wants to be “locked and left.” Just because his penis is not longer available for stimulation doesn’t mean the rest of his body and mind should be forgotten!

Chastity Nirvana has two sub-phases, one of which I am more sure about than the other.

The Home Stretch. It seems that most men have some sense of when they are going to be released. Even if they don’t know an exact date, it seems that keyholders like to drop hints: “around your birthday,” “Christmas,” “after the first of the year.” Some men do have an exact date and even though that may change, they still anticipate their release. As they get closer to the date, real or anticipated, they move into the Home Stretch.

The Home Stretch seems to be fraught with a tinge of anxiety as well as anticipation. Chastity Nirvana, is, at its essence, a peaceful phase, even though the man is experiencing a high level of sexual excitement throughout (another paradox of chastity: being highly aroused can be peaceful and Zen-like). In the Home Stretch, the man begins to anticipate the feeling of being released and the opportunity to orgasm that has been denied for a period of time. Knowing that “the end is near” heightens the sexual excitement and tension. At the same time, there is anxiety, knowing that if he is released, he will need to begin the entire chastity process again. I think all people tend to resist change and being in the Home Stretch is an anticipation of change and thus stressful. The pleasurable outcome of having an orgasm heightens this internal conflict. Just as Getting to Headspace is a phase of internal conflict, so is the Home Stretch.

Diminishing Returns. This is a phase I am truly not sure about, but things I have read suggest to me that it exists.

While I said that Chastity Nirvana can go on indefinitely, it seems that there is a point where the sexual energy and tension of chastity will eventually plateau and then begin to decline. While the fantasy of “permanent orgasm denial” is a powerful one, it seems that a man does need to be released and orgasm in order to keep the entire cycle of chastity alive. Many couples seem to experiment with prolonged periods of chastity in an effort to see just how far they can push the Chastity Nirvana phase and also find where they reach the plateau and decline of Diminishing Returns. Some never seem to get there which is probably why not many people discuss this. However, one woman did write me and say that she and her husband have learned that two weeks is their best “length of cycle.” She said they did go for a month, once, but after that experience she discovered that for them, it was better to keep their game short and focused. Realizing that has made it a very positive experience and they are fully committed to their chastity lifestyle.

Orgasm. The final phase. Not too much to say about this since it’s pretty obvious what it is! But a few comments are in order.

First, the pleasure reverts back to the man. “My pleasure is my pleasure,” and I think this is true, even in men who have their orgasms controlled (frequency, how, when) even when they are not locked up. Second, the power goes back to the man or at least becomes more equally shared by the couple. Last, the feelings of anticipation and tension disappear since those factors no longer exist and will not exist, again, until the man is locked up, either mentally (honor system) or physically by a device.

How much both members of the couple enjoy the feelings of the chastity process will determine how much and how deeply they play the game. For some couples, it is an integral part of their lifestyle. For others, it is a game that is played occasionally. For some men, it is a game that they play in a somewhat solo fashion if their wife is unwilling to participate or not fully on board or half-hearted in her interest.

Some observations:

  1. Newcomers to chastity may not get out of the Getting to Headspace phase their first few times. The sexual frustration and tension of that phase may be so overwhelming that it pushes all other feelings aside and the only resolution is orgasm. This explains why many people will have short lock-ups at the beginning: overnight, a few days, a week. But as the feelings of tension and frustration become more familiar, they are able to process those emotions and begin to experience the amazement and wonder more fully, and also complete the work of the consensual power exchange.
  2. It is possible to go right from nirvana to orgasm without any experience of home stretch or diminishing returns. Cricketed wrote about this recently in his blog when he was asked to orgasm, and did, upon request of his wife. Even though it was a request—a demand even—it was still a pleasurable experience and not a “ruined orgasm.”
  3. The desire to find the outer limit of Chastity Nirvana explains why many couples keep lengthening their periods of lock-up with each subsequent lock-up. To those who read blogs or forum posts, it may look like a bit of a competition: “I went 100 days!” “Well, bully for you, I went 200!” While the competitive aspect is fun, I think it is important to remember that the ultimate determination of a lock-up period is the couple’s personal experience. A couple that keeps the cycle short, ie, two weeks, is just as successful as the marathon couple who go for months. In fact, maybe they are even more successful because they do know their outer limit, while many of the marathoners do not.
  4. This model is built on the principle of consensual power exchange versus total power exchange. TPE is the principle that informs Master/slave relationships and defines couples where one person has given up all control to all aspects of their life and body to the other person. While this might occur for a few hours during a “scene,” many like to present it as a complete lifestyle that is lived 365/24/7. How many couples live this way is a matter of debate.

A consensual power exchange, on the other hand, is more focused. Within the context of chastity, a man gives up control of his penis and orgasms, and perhaps other things, such as not being able to play erotically with his nipples. But CPE in a chaste couple exists within the context of their chastity experience; I have not read about, for example, a man being asked to crawl around the house only on his hands and knees and be forced to eat his meals from a dog bowl. TPE couples do claim that as part of their experience, although how much is real and how much is fantasy is another matter.

I also think this helps to explain some of the issues around the word “submissive.” A TPE submissive is very different from a CPE submissive and some men may not see themselves as submissive at all—and that may be very true to their experience. Because people come at this word from differing conceptual perspectives, it creates conflict when they try to discuss whether a chaste person is submissive or not.

I would love to discuss this more in-depth so that I can inform and refine my thoughts with input from others. Please feel free to comment here on the blog. I have also started a thread at the Chastity Forum, which can be found here. Sometimes forum posts are more conducive to ongoing and in-depth discussion, so I have created the opportunity for that to occur.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to what folks have to say.